Episode 8: Vocation for His Sake
An interview with Cyndy Chueh
Cyndy walks us through why EVERY vocation is sacred and how the Christian walk requires obedience & trust in every area of our lives. We talk "glass ceiling," worldly standards & expectations, mom guilt, and how REST is essential to being your best self no matter the vocation.
The Seeds
Name: Cyndy Chueh
Age: 36
Relationship Status: Married
Season of Work: Full-Time Attorney
Hobbies: Reading. Not much time for anything else these days! I think I’ve exercised three times in the last 3 years--trying to change that.
Interesting Facts about me:
This may be lame, but I own a public library card from every city I’ve ever lived in, including Palo Alto (my college town), Oxford (where I studied abroad for 3 months), Cambridge, MA (where I went to law school), my home town outside Chicago, NYC, and SF.
I went to kindergarten and high school with James Holzhauer, of Jeopardy fame.
I’m Taiwanese -- my parents immigrated from Taiwan as students and met in the U.S.
Jesus Journey:
My parents became Christians when they moved to the Chicago area when I was around 6 or 7. They joined a small Taiwanese church, so my brother and I grew up going to church. We’re both still believers. I accepted Christ as a kid during a sleepover that my pastor’s wife had for a few of us girls but grew a lot from my Christian community at Stanford, where I went to college.
The Branches
Cyndy, I’ve known you for a few years now. We met through our church moms group here in SF. One of the things that I admire about you is your passion toward your particular vocation. Can you tell the “Olive Us” family about your vocation and where the desire to work in this field came from?
I’m a lawyer. I work at a large international law firm and specialize in working with clients (mostly companies, but sometimes individuals) who are being investigated by federal enforcement authorities like the DOJ and SEC. I’ve been at my firm for more than 7 years and am actually just about to move to Google, where I’ll be managing government enforcement and regulatory actions.
I became a lawyer mostly because after college I happened to get a job at a small law firm in New York. My main goal at that time was to find a job in NY for personal reasons, but I found I enjoyed the work. It was a small firm, and the lawyers there definitely mentored me and gave me the opportunity to do a lot of substantive work--things that a lot of junior lawyers don’t get to do for a while. So I decided to give it a shot and apply to law school.
Have you always wanted to be a lawyer? Were their mentors that helped steer you in the direction of where you are today?
I had no intention of being a lawyer until that job after college. I wouldn’t say that I had a lot of ideals about law (you know, fighting for civil rights, upholding constitutional values, enforcing the rule of law) because my first encounter was not with law but with the legal profession. It was a very practical experience--I saw what you did as a lawyer, what the day-to-day was like, when it was fun, when it was stressful, etc. I thought, “okay, this is something I could do.” If I had gone in the direction of my dreams at that time, I would have become an editorial assistant or a literary agent. My great passion is narrative and stories. But God gives us what we need not what we want, and looking back, I think the legal profession, with all the ways that God had led me in my career, has suited me.
I knew from the beginning that I was good at being a lawyer. I was good because God made me good. I had the right skill set, I liked people and could build relationships with them, and I was smart in the right way for this kind of work. My career has gone extraordinarily smooth. It helps that I like my work, but I don’t love my work. I don’t identify with it. This helps me to get some distance from it, and makes me overall a more balanced person and, with that, a better lawyer.
I wouldn’t say I ever felt called to be a lawyer. I have always just felt, okay, this is what God is having me do now. And who knows for what purpose? I don’t think God owes it to us to tell us or that we would necessarily understand if he did. But if this is where he has me, that’s enough. I am content with that, and I can grow in this place.
So you’ve worked in the field for more than 7 years, you got married, and now have two small children. Single to married...then married to two small children. Some mothers in your field choose to make a career change and work inside of the home...you chose to continue working outside of the home. Why is this the best choice for you and your family?
It’s obviously different for everyone, but it is definitely better for us for several reasons. The first is that God has blessed my career. He has given me a lot of success at work and, with that, a lot of flexibility in shaping my work/life balance after kids. The second is that I never felt called to stay at home and, with my temperament, don’t think I would like it. I love working on teams. I like tackling difficult analytical and managerial challenges. I also like spending time with my kids, but it would be very hard for me to spend the entire day with them, day after day. A third reason is that, if I did decide to work inside the home, it would have been a serious disruption to our finances and long-term plans, and it would have created a lot of pressure on my husband. It didn’t make sense to do that.
Also, what I said about not identifying with my work applies in the opposite way for me when it comes to working in the home. I know that if I were my kids’ full-time caretaker, I would identify with my work and I would take every success and failure very personally. I can get this way even if I have my kids for a couple of days or weeks over break. I can’t get distance from parenting as a full-time job the way I can from being a full-time lawyer, if that makes sense. And the result is not good.
Everyone’s situation is different. I know that I’m lucky to be paid enough that we can afford full-time care for our children during the workday. Not everyone has that choice.
Have you ever felt guilty for taking the time off after having your children? What about going back to work after having them? What about deciding to have someone help you? When these feelings creep in...what do you do to combat them? How do you replace the lies with truth?
I did not feel guilty taking time off after having kids or even really about going back to work. But the hard part is not the 6 months after birth, the hard part is the 18 years after that (I’m only 3 years into it, but I imagine it continues for the next 18 years…) when you are working full-time while being a mom and wife. You constantly ask yourself, and evaluate and re-evaluate in every sphere: Am I doing enough? It’s not as simple as, am I spending enough time with the kids versus am I spending enough time at work? Time is not the only currency. There is also attention, energy, and care. I think of a lot of things:
Am I present enough with my kids? Am I playing enough with them? Am I giving them my best time instead of just leftover time from work? Am I following their development at school/daycare enough?
And on the work front, it’s not just, am I doing a good enough job? It’s am I mentoring younger lawyers enough? Am I listening to my colleagues when they need someone to talk to? Am I fully engaging with my work so that I produce the best that I can?
And then there are questions about your community. Am I caring for my friends? Am I contributing to my church? Am I being a good neighbor and citizen? Do I care enough about climate change? Am I composting? It’s ridiculous, but the list goes on and on.
One thing that has helped me with this is rest. It is counterintuitive, but you have to do less. Or, in fact, nothing. And this helps you address that whole litany of exhausting questions that I just ran through. Rest means not just sitting at the beach and looking at the waves or going to a spa. Rest means you rest from your work--you let it be. This can be when I’m playing with my kids and, instead of letting the gears in my mind run and trying to think, “okay, what is the best way to play with them? How could we have more fun?”, to just play. Or it means putting together work that is good enough, even knowing that it could be better or I could read through it one more time, letting it be. It means instead of staying up late to prep for some important meeting, I just go to sleep. Let it be. Let yourself be. Don’t needle yourself to do better and better, and more and more. In Genesis, it says that on the 7th day of creation God rested from the work that he had done. I don’t know what he actually did on the 7th day - it might have been something actually very difficult and creative -- but whatever it was, it wasn’t to fiddle with the earth and fine tune the seas, and to go back and mess with everything he had just done. He rested from that specifically.
The second thing is to ask what God would have me do. Those are the only things I truly can do. This is hard because it means I actually have to care what God wants me to do. I have to spend time listening to him; I have to obey him. All the typical things help with this--having a community that knows God and talks about him, time in prayer and reading the Bible. It also helps to have time where you sit with yourself and understand yourself. In my experience, none of the external motions help unless you are willing to be honest with yourself, to seek to understand what it is you really want, why you feel dissatisfied, what it is you expected of God. In C.S. Lewis’ book “Til We Have Faces,” there is a line at the end (sorry, spoiler alert), where the protagonist comes to understand the nature of God and her relationship with him, and she says, how can we see God face to face until we have faces? How can we speak to God until we are actually saying something? Most of what we say and pray is nonsense. We are praying either to ourselves or to what we wish or expect God to be instead of what he actually is. But, Lewis says, there is a speech that lies at the center of soul--that is what we must pray. That would be a true prayer. I think we need to seek after that. Otherwise, how can you be honest with God and how can he actually work with you?
In terms of having someone help us, we had a full-time nanny that watched my daughter and my son until they went to daycare. As every mom who employs a nanny probably knows, on the one hand you are so grateful that there is someone who really cares for your kids and that they bond to. On the other hand, it can be hard to see your kids prefer your nanny at times. When I feel that sting, I have to recognize, yes that hurts but no it’s not bad. And it is partially just my vanity and foolishness. I want my kids to prefer me until I’m really tired and wish they would go attach themselves like leeches to someone else. You can’t have it both ways. Besides, it’s healthy for them to have many people in their lives that love and care for them.
The only time I’ve felt guilty about having a nanny is when I feel like she is doing too much for us. I mean, our nanny not only watches the kids but does our laundry, cooks for us, and, if she has time, cleans the house. Sometimes I feel a stab of panic that we are becoming too dependent on her but that’s mostly my pride of independence speaking. I want to be able to do it all myself. Realistically, I can’t.
I also sometimes feel--not guilty exactly, but regret that we pay someone to watch our children. There’s a part of me that wishes for a small village-type life where all our family lives in walking distance and we have multiple generations all together. Maybe it will be that way in heaven.
In a 2019 article by VeryWellFamily they reported that 71% of moms work outside of the home while 29% work in the home(they call it stay at home…I’m trying to change the term all together!) In Sheryl Sandberg’s book, “Lean In” she talks about (and I’m paraphrasing) “that if we as women want to break the glass ceiling in the workplace, mothers must decide to work after having children.” Article after Article...book after book….stat after stat... there is so much NOISE related to these two vocational choices for us as women in the world. Do you think this messaging is helpful or hurtful to women as a whole? As a believer and follower of Christ how do we filter these messages from the media?
I have to say that I have not really read much about women making the decision to work outside v. inside the home after having kids or listened to a lot of explicit messaging (unspoken cultural norms is another matter--no one escapes that).
I think these things are all helpful when taken as a data point. Sheryl Sandberg’s view is one person’s view with certain values embedded in it. You can concede that she’s right without adopting her priorities. Ultimately what you do with your life is between you and God. I’d also add that the messaging doesn’t stop at whether you work in or outside the home. There are plenty of differences moms who stay in the workforce-- some do every daycare drop off and pick up, some cook homemade meals every night, some employ full-time nannies and eat out most of the time. Let these things be a data point, not a standard.
Just on this point of keeping moms in the workforce, I think companies are better for having moms (and moms specifically, as a subcategory of “women”) in the workforce. Moms get stuff done. They are efficient, they do not mess around, and at the same time, they are compassionate and kind. The experience of being a mom makes you a better worker. RBG has talked about this. When she started at Columbia Law School, she had just had her daughter. She would go to law school during the day and spend time with her daughter in the evenings. She said that having that time with her daughter made her a better student because it forced her brain to take time off--she rested from that work--and came back to it with sharper, more focused mind.
At our local church we have a series called, “Sacred Vocation,” (that you’ve actually taught before I believe) and it’s also one of our core values. Cyndy, can you speak into this idea and encourage the “Olive Us” family today to know the importance of walking out whatever vocation God has them in?
I think a lot of people think that vocation is this thing where a golden light descends on you and you suddenly understand what you are supposed to do and have a burning mission in life. Some people have that experience, but I think most people most of the time do not. We feel like we are just working the jobs that we ended up at. That is not contradictory to having a vocation.
I think vocation is what God asks you to do in this season of life. There is no “calling” beyond that. To follow your vocation is to be obedient, to do the thing that he has asked, to do it well for his sake, and through it to see him and enjoy him. If he has asked you to do something he will certainly give you the ability to do it. These are the same principles that apply to all of the Christian life; it’s no different when it comes to work.
I’ve worked at a law firm for 7 years and someone asked me how I survived that long given the reputation that big law firms have. I told him that at the end of every year, I considered what I had done at work, what it had cost me, and whether it was worth it. And at the end of every year, I decided, okay, this is where God has me. I’ll keep going.
The Olive Tree
Olive Us was created for women to share their experiences through life and their "Only God" moments so that we can remember we are connected through Christ and that we're not alone. Why is this important?
I think it’s important to know that there are people going through the same struggles as us, but also to know that there are people going through entirely different experiences and struggles from us. The church is one of the few places in the world where you can connect with someone entirely unlike yourself--different education, different socioeconomic class, different culture, different political opinions. We have to stay in contact with each other so that we can remember and truly understand that the world is a huge place, we are not the center of it or the reference point for everything, and that God is God over all of it.
Finish these statements:
God is...faithful
All of of our Vocations Matter because...we are God’s hands and feet in the world. We are building heaven until it comes.
"Olive Us" are better when...we pray.